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The same thing as they can't be explained in their extraterrestrial spacecraft, if

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that's what you mean.

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Why don't you believe that?

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A moment ago you used a cop out, you weren't quite sure of anything, and now you became

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an authority in the last seven seconds.

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No, I'm not.

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No, I'm not.

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No, I'm not.

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I'm only an authority in the sense that I have spent the last, I would say, eight months

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checking through the files of Project Blue Book, which is our government's official

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UFO unidentified file.

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Are you an American citizen?

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You know the same crimes that I dealt with, wouldn't be that way.

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I was just wondering, are you proud of that book that you just used for your reference?

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The Project Blue Book was first in print.

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I think the United States Air Force is doing a great job.

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Really?

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Yes, really.

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Tell me more about it.

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I'll give you another two seconds to give me all the knowledge that you have about the

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project.

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Two seconds?

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Well, they opened their files.

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The man, they'd open it to any accredited member of the press.

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Five.

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That's true.

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I'm aware of that, too.

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But when you say open their files, what does it mean?

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It means they have 11,000-odd cases there, and if you want to spend the time, you can

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go through...

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How about 659 that they know nothing about?

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What information do they have about those?

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Of those 659, by the way, there are only 65 that have enough data supplied to give you

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an opinion that they can't be solved.

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The rest...

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Try.

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No way, no way.

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I'll take the 65 then.

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Don't bother with the other six seconds.

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Throw those out.

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Now let's get down to 65.

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Right.

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What do you know about those?

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Well, they're all listed in the Issues of Science and Mechanics.

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I know.

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I hope you do.

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Can I know what it is?

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Well, I heard people read these magazines today.

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No way.

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The one thing that struck me, the one thing that was very unique to me, was that of those

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65 cases, almost all of them with enough data and reliable observers, of the total, there

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were less than three each that jotted with the rest.

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What does that mean?

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That means that the unidentified objects that were observed by these individuals were completely

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different in shape, I mean in configuration, in action, in color, in all kinds of things,

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you know, all of it, in their tactics, in their velocities.

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These things all contradicted each other.

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Now, if...

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Well, if there's 65 there, that would be wrong for contradiction, wouldn't that...

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This is not a coral group you're talking about.

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No, no, no, but my point is, John, my point is that if there were an intelligent super

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race on some planet around some mirror star sending these spacecraft into the Earth to

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keep us under surveillance, why would they need, say, 58 to 60 different configurations

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and different types of spacecraft?

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I don't know.

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If they were intelligent...

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Yeah, the man who writes all these articles, so I only had you here because you were an

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expert.

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I didn't ask you to come up here and wax the floors, did I?

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No, but you're questioning an online expert.

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You mean you doubt your expert...

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No, I don't.

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You do.

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Well, I must say the fact is that you tell me that there's 65 and already you told me that

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they can't be coming from some other planet.

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You had to know that.

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I told you that it seems unlikely that of 65 that are absolutely unknown, the Air Force,

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our government cannot really identify, and yet there is enough information for them to

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make an identification if that's possible.

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Of these 65, there are 58 to 60 of them that are completely different, that don't match.

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So this means there has to be at least 58 to 60 different races of extraterrestrial

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people keeping us under surveillance, or else it means that one race somewhere out there

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in the universe has designed 58 to 60 different types of spacecraft, which is very inefficient.

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Well, aren't you the same man that knows that the Russians, they're sputniks?

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No, not they're sputniks.

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Not they're cosmonauts.

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You don't even know what I'm going to ask you about.

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I wanted to ask you what you thought of their nit-tides.

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I'll tell you something.

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You know, we're nit-tides.

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I'm glad I'm here tonight.

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I never thought that I would be so busy.

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Well, sir, I know that I won't ask you that question.

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I'll ask you another question.

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Let's get back to what were you telling us in your series of articles in science and mechanics?

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Did you consider the whole Russian space program to be fraudulent?

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No, I didn't say that.

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I consider the entire man space program to be fake.

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It's a fake.

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Right.

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And how did you learn this, Mr. Mellon?

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I learned it the hard way.

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First of all, before I went over there...

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Everything you do is hard.

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But keep going.

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You might get fired.

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I shall realize that.

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Keep going.

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No, before I went over there, I believed everything.

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I read in the New York Times, the Radiation Week,

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or even in the Asternautics, Aeronautics and Astronauts.

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Or even science and mechanics.

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Or even science and mechanics.

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That's right.

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I played this, and then I went over there on an assignment.

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And I received one shock after another.

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I mean, they're electronic equipment, by the way.

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Oh, I thought you were going to speak of the Russian girl's ankles.

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The arm of a sick.

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Well, that's true, except in the Arctic pretty, that's another bit of propaganda.

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There are a few who are.

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Only a few.

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Do you enjoy expertise in that area, Tim?

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No, no.

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I don't.

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Let's stick in the things that you really are an expert.

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All right.

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Smoking can do you no harm.

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I didn't say that.

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You, host, what did you say?

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I said smoking can be safer.

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That's what the theme of my book is.

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That's the title?

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The title was not my fault.

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The publisher.

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What is the title, Tim?

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The title is, It is Safe to Smoke.

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All right, sir.

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Continue.

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That is not my title.

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Who is it?

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The American Tobacco Company?

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No, I didn't look.

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I have no connection with any tobacco company.

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I guarantee you that.

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No, I was only asking about the title.

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It's Fred Turner's title.

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He's president of the Hawthorne Books.

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Fred thought of him as a title.

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It's giving you a lot of action on that.

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He also made me a lot of enemies among the scientists I interviewed.

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You want to make it true?

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Because of the title?

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No, not just because of the book.

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They all thought it was a good book.

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The title would fail really annoying.

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Let me ask you, Mr.

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No, we're in finish.

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No, I know I'm going to get back to you in a moment because already you're going to be talking about girls.

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I know you don't know what you're talking about.

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Electronics.

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That means for a moment to ask you, Mr.

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Stan, you've seen the blue book.

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Yes.

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Are you impressed with it?

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Not very much, no.

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Some of the material is good, some is bad, some is miserable, frankly.

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There have been so many changes of policy during the course of the blue book program that this is inevitable.

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In fact, if you go back as far as Rupel's original book, when he was shortly after he had left the command of the program himself,

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he acknowledges this in his own writing, which I think is probably the most detailed,

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which is available now on the early history of blue book.

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He points out, for instance, that there was a time when about 10% of the cases actually being called,

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the Air Force's attention were actually being put down in the blue book program.

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They simply weren't able to cope with the rest of them.

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And this was not by any means for a week.

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It went on for months.

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A great deal of the material wasn't recorded at all.

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And when the policy was to favor the idea that there was something important that should be investigated,

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a lot of work got done and it would be a time when somebody up above who pulled the whole program

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would be played down over there, practically, no, not with shuffle papers.

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So I don't have too much confidence in the blue book material.

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But how about the people on blue book? This is what I was referring to.

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They're all nice guys.

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They're all pretty sharp guys. They try their best.

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If they try their best, then I wouldn't doubt that they are trying their best.

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They're not hiding anything from the America.

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How do you know?

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That's what I'm talking about.

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How do you know?

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Well, I know them.

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What do you mean that you know?

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I doubt that.

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That doesn't mean that you know.

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You mean...

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Why are they spending $300,000 with...

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The University of Colorado.

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Convent.

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Convent University of Colorado.

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$350,000, roughly.

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And why are they doing this?

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No.

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For this very reason, the public thinks they're hiding something.

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They turned over the project to Convent at the University of Colorado

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and he has a completely free hand.

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It can release?

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Well, that's not quite accurate.

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They didn't turn over the project.

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No, Project Blue Book is still going on quite independently.

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You're...

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Convent is conducting an independent investigation.

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He's supposed to have access to all the blue book material.

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What much good it'll do, I think.

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But it's quite independent of Blue Book, which continues.

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Well, yes, except that he has an absolutely free hand.

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It can make his own investigations and can release his decisions

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or his committee's decisions without even consulting the...

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Incidentally, I have a flash for you on that.

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I spoke to him day before yesterday and I'm told, yes.

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I'm told there will be no release of a public statement for quite a long time,

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perhaps not until the end of this first phase of this investigation,

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which may be late in 1967.

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Well, this is because the guy, the scientist,

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and he's playing it cautiously.

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Well, that is what he told me.

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He said it's simply that Snowed Under there with work.

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In fact, when I called him, I was dumbfounded to find that the first person

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who spoke to me on the phone was him,

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which would give me an idea of how heavily staffed they are out there.

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And he said, frankly, he's been so pestered by calls

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and one thing and another that he decided they were going to have to do something else.

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That they were being just inundated with information and inquiries at this time.

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They really haven't gotten very far with it yet.

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No, that's true.

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They haven't even gotten their way.

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Paris Lamont, what do you think about that McCrushy did the article in the Cavalier magazine?

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Have you read any of Mr. Mowlin's articles?

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No, I haven't. That should be an interesting experience.

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I think that it's even more interesting than the fact that he has articles.

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I think that he is an expert on the field.

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I question whether there has ever been an expert on the field of flying saucers or UFOs,

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which I distinguish one from the other.

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It seems to me that since the Air Force admits it cannot explain portions of the size,

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it has always had 26, 615.

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There's always a number that it just sloughs off completely.

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That's a good number.

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Well, I don't think it's going to be a problem.

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I'll give you really an opportunity to...

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Well, it's his phrase, you know.

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He can't use those phrases here?

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Well, he can.

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Come on, Lory.

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Maybe a unique idea.

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Let's finish the statement before we rip the part.

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Clopper or Margie, what?

255
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,000
Go ahead, Mr. Salamon.

256
00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,000
After which I'll teach you faceology.

257
00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:04,000
The simple situation is that all of the experts have been people

258
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:10,000
who are genuinely curious and collecting fragments of data available,

259
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:16,000
trying to put them together into some sort of cohesive intelligence framework,

260
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:20,000
and from that drawing some sort of conclusion,

261
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:27,000
the more intelligent the conclusion is, the more tentative the conclusion usually.

262
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:36,000
And so, since basically it's a subject about which virtually nothing is really known,

263
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:43,000
there's no hardware, there's no really concrete photographs, there are no good films,

264
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:52,000
there is no data in any really concrete or practical sense,

265
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,000
and so it's all speculation.

266
00:13:54,000 --> 00:14:02,000
And I hesitate to credit anyone as an expert

267
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:07,000
when the basis of their expertise lies in speculation.

268
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,000
I think they're informed people on the subject,

269
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:16,000
and I'm even willing to be convinced that Mr. Salamon is one of those for the evening,

270
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,000
but not from what he says so far.

271
00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,000
Now, who now?

272
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,000
Well, I agree with you.

273
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,000
You speak French?

274
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,000
No, I agree with you.

275
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:36,000
I agree with you, and this may surprise you.

276
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,000
Is the argument ever fair?

277
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:46,000
No, it doesn't end the argument, because by expertise you don't mean, I mean, I at least don't mean someone

278
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:53,000
who understands what a UFO is, but who understands a funny one.

279
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,000
I mean, it's a mixture of terms right there.

280
00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,000
I agree with it.

281
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:05,000
Well, if we go back to that, we can even quarrel about what we mean by an expert,

282
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,000
because if you know more about a given subject than anybody else,

283
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:16,000
or than most people, then you must almost per se be comparatively speaking an expert on a subject,

284
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,000
even though you don't know much, if you know more than somebody else.

285
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,000
You had a lot of modifiers in there.

286
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:26,000
Well, you know anything that doesn't require a few modifiers about this field?

287
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,000
Well, that's my point.

288
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:32,000
To call anyone an expert simply because they know more than someone else.

289
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:38,000
For example, we can have someone who knows a great many of the contact-t stories.

290
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,000
Doesn't know nothing about the UFO.

291
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:44,000
Well, if you're an expert on contact-t stories, who's that?

292
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,000
I mean, supposing somebody is an expert on life.

293
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,000
Alright, John would certainly be the man.

294
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,000
I'm sorry, I thought we'd know what the man is.

295
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:53,000
Anybody in the best.

296
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:54,000
I would buy that.

297
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,000
And as a matter of fact, anything else, I don't.

298
00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,000
Most people don't even, I didn't really permit you with this,

299
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,000
and they call themselves experts on UFOs,

300
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,000
and they really know nothing about the contact-t aspect of it.

301
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,000
Have you ever interviewed a contact-t?

302
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,000
Yes.

303
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:11,000
What was his name?

304
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,000
His name was Nenon.

305
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,000
Allen Mermit, now in Los Angeles.

306
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,000
In fact, he told me that he...

307
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,000
The one got away.

308
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:26,000
He didn't even describe the architecture of the cities on the planet Venus to me.

309
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,000
Very straightforwardly.

310
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,000
He shipped me up a little by the way.

311
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,000
Did you use it in your article?

312
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:34,000
No, no, no.

313
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:35,000
Because...

314
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,000
Later, would you tell us some of these things?

315
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:39,000
Sure.

316
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:40,000
Repeat what he told you.

317
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,000
No, I don't have a type recording of this.

318
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,000
No, I don't want you to tell me.

319
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,000
I hope I can remember.

320
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:47,000
Right.

321
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:48,000
Right.

322
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:52,000
Yes, I love to talk to experts.

323
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:58,000
Look, let's drop that word, because what I meant when I said I agreed was the...

324
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,000
Paris...

325
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,000
Paris is Paris.

326
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:08,000
Right, the fact is that Mr. Shat said that he likes to talk with experts.

327
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:13,000
The fact that now you don't want to be one does not necessarily mean that from now on,

328
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,000
instead, you don't think you're some sort of expert.

329
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,000
Well, I presented him...

330
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,000
I've heard of an informed person.

331
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:25,000
What I meant when I agreed with him...

332
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,000
I was looking at you and I...

333
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,000
If I were you, I would have presented my remark, too.

334
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,000
So I apologize, all right?

335
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,000
You're not an expert.

336
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,000
But Heaven should never apologize on this program.

337
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,000
Oh, he always apologizes.

338
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:37,000
I can't really do it.

339
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:42,000
Yes, and this is an interesting way of setting people up, if I know something about it.

340
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:43,000
I thought they were dangerous.

341
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:44,000
I believe...

342
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:45,000
Anyway, to go on.

343
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:53,000
There's a magazine called Flying Saucers, as you all know, put out by Look Magazine.

344
00:17:53,000 --> 00:18:00,000
And I think there's a lot of bright people, since Look Magazine, I think, is a fine magazine

345
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,000
and it's made up of bright people.

346
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,000
They gather a lot of bright people together and they get a lot of...

347
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,000
A lot of new and memorable pieces of information, like photographs and stories.

348
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:17,000
And they finally, after calling it all, put out this pretty interesting magazine.

349
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:21,000
And after it's all supposedly the past, I would say that they say,

350
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:26,000
well, this is about as good as you can get from this series and this is about as good as you can get from this series.

351
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,000
And finally, we have this in front of us.

352
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:30,000
We really got it.

353
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,000
And if I've heard a lot of photographs, it's pretty as it can be.

354
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:37,000
But, it doesn't say anything.

355
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:42,000
It simply says we don't agree that there are any flying saucers.

356
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:46,000
And then I look carefully, being a photographer, I say, well, now I'm going to be...

357
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,000
Let me be open.

358
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,000
Let me be as open as I can.

359
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:56,000
Maybe there was a flying saucer somewhere in here that said, you know,

360
00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:01,000
but every single photograph in here could easily be tricked.

361
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,000
With such a gaze.

362
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,000
So that magazine is interesting.

363
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,000
And I looked it over and had lots of fun.

364
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:14,000
I've talked to many of you guys over the years, different flying saucer people,

365
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:19,000
you know, on a flight, but you pose a few old people.

366
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:25,000
And always at the end, I get what is a beautiful photograph,

367
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:30,000
analogously in my mind, which is faked.

368
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,000
But that's the feeling I finally get.

369
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:36,000
I'm giving you my character in relation to flying saucers.

370
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:40,000
Now I have these several questions for all of you.

371
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,000
I mean, Paris, I know I've known him for many years.

372
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:47,000
And P&I, I believe agree on the situation.

373
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,000
You pose a one thing flying saucer, something else.

374
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,000
That's a very important point, by the way.

375
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:53,000
Extremely important.

376
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,000
Well, as you're being known, agree on a definition.

377
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:56,000
And I would...

378
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,000
And you pose a thing that has not been...

379
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,000
What it says is...

380
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,000
That's right.

381
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:02,000
That's what it says.

382
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:03,000
It's not identified.

383
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:04,000
And it's like, so it says,

384
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:08,000
what other people call things that they think they see in the air from what I feel.

385
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,000
Is that a pretty good thing?

386
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,000
Well, if you would put one inside, there's some part of the other definition.

387
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,000
And no, I don't know.

388
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,000
You can put one near the other.

389
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,000
You pose precisely what they say there.

390
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,000
They are unidentified.

391
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:23,000
Scenario...

392
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:24,000
Anomaly.

393
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:31,000
Flying saucers are those sites that are applied to the description.

394
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:39,000
To those sightings, where in the viewer claims to have observed a craft of any type size, shape, or description,

395
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:46,000
but a vehicle presumably intelligently controlled, probably extraterrestrial.

396
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,000
I would agree with that.

397
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:49,000
Would you say that was...

398
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:50,000
And this would be...

399
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,000
...and people got out.

400
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:53,000
Yeah.

401
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:54,000
They would have been out.

402
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,000
You want to define it that way, or would you agree with her?

403
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:01,000
I would go on with it for the discussion, but I'm sure that's not the attitude,

404
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,000
the feeling that most of our audience have about what they mean when they say...

405
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:05,000
Well, let's try to get it.

406
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:06,000
Flying saucers?

407
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,000
But unfortunately, that's the problem.

408
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,000
They don't make any distinction between the two.

409
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:17,000
Let us just say that a saucer is in quite a pack of some sort of craft.

410
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,000
Otherwise, it's a UFO.

411
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,000
And you have to make a distinction between the two if you're going to...

412
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:29,000
Why did this Canada title 20 years ago, when he was interviewed by the press, this Idaho businessman,

413
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:38,000
why didn't, when the reporter said, well, can you describe it, why didn't he say it's unidentified

414
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,000
and it was a flying, it was an object instead?

415
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,000
He said, gee, that's pretty tough.

416
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,000
It was like a saucer flying through the air.

417
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,000
That's, and you know the history of it as well.

418
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:57,000
The other thing I could find out was that he described it as moving like a saucer that you might skip across the water,

419
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,000
like we've all thrown flutter rocks and get out.

420
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:05,000
And apparently, the reporter or the stringer for AP or somebody like that...

421
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:06,000
That was AP.

422
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,000
... coined the phrase that it was a flying saucer.

423
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,000
I don't think Arnold originally said that.

424
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,000
No, you're right.

425
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,000
Mr. Heidel.

426
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,000
Tommy, he's right.

427
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,000
He's right, though.

428
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,000
Well, that ends that.

429
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:20,000
I'll go home.

430
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,000
I'll make you a white man on the floor.

431
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:22,000
That's one for me.

432
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,000
I'm just marking it down.

433
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:25,000
I can't just say this to you.

434
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,000
You guys aren't very serious, are you?

435
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,000
Oh, well, I'm very serious.

436
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,000
All right, let me tell you something.

437
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,000
When did you speak with Mr. Heidel?

438
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:37,000
I never spoke with Mr. Heidel.

439
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,000
Then how are you in a position to score this already?

440
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:44,000
Because I went through his file, which is a very thick file.

441
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,000
What do you mean, which quote?

442
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,000
Yeah.

443
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:48,000
That a project loop.

444
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:49,000
In a Niles file?

445
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,000
Yes, I have a Xerox copy of it at home.

446
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,000
Well, I know Kenneth Idle.

447
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,000
Okay.

448
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:56,000
That's better than you.

449
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,000
I've had him on the show.

450
00:22:58,000 --> 00:22:59,000
That's better than you.

451
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:00,000
It's 20 years longer.

452
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,000
So I'm going to score.

453
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:08,000
All I can tell you is that Kenneth Idle has been to me on my program.

454
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:14,000
And I'll tell you the time when David Suskind was the Armstrong Circle Theater,

455
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:19,000
I think was the name of the show.

456
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:23,000
And Doug Edwards, I think, was the emcee.

457
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:24,000
The keyhole.

458
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,000
The keyhole.

459
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:26,000
The keyhole.

460
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:27,000
They cut him off there.

461
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:33,000
And then there was a man, an astronomer, I forget, from Harvard.

462
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,000
He came down.

463
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,000
Wasn't that the national?

464
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,000
I'm sorry, I can't say.

465
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:47,000
And Kenneth Idle, though, however, did not appear on the program, although he was in town.

466
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,000
And at that time, I didn't know David Suskind.

467
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,000
He didn't know me.

468
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,000
In fact, his name didn't mean too much to me.

469
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,000
And my name meant nothing to him.

470
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,000
But he sent a telegram.

471
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,000
I think you were associated with me in those days.

472
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,000
I'm not.

473
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:09,000
And I said to the telegram and said, be fair, and don't do anything until you call us to

474
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,000
find out what actually took place.

475
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:18,000
They had cue cards, which was not wrong, believe me, because in other words, you've got a time

476
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:19,000
to show it.

477
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,000
It isn't a free-swinging show like we're doing here.

478
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:26,000
And on the cue cards, they told Kenneth Idle what to say.

479
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,000
He didn't want to say that.

480
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:33,000
Kenneth Idle, the next day, that afternoon, was on my probe.

481
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,000
We taped it.

482
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,000
I mean, I didn't do an afternoon show on those days.

483
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,000
And he described it as a flying shot.

484
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,000
This is what he claims.

485
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:48,000
Now, maybe Kenneth Idle is wrong because I wasn't there 20 years ago when the statement was made.

486
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:49,000
No, no.

487
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:55,000
All I'm saying is that he made, I mean, his verbatim statements were recorded.

488
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,000
By whom?

489
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,000
By these Air Force investigators who interviewed.

490
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,000
And it's in the file with Project Bluebook.

491
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,000
And this is what I waited through.

492
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,000
It's a very thick file.

493
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:14,000
All I was trying to say is, I mean, I'm not taking sides again.

494
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:21,000
All I'm saying is that Kenneth Arnold was the man who started the whole business, really.

495
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,000
I just said that before you did.

496
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,000
I'm glad that you, this is a score one for me.

497
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,000
It's not a whole check.

498
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,000
Just a little top there.

499
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:32,000
You know what I mean?

500
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,000
I don't want to get a whole score.

501
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,000
Bigtown is turned on by the sound of Lee Leonard's voice.

502
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,000
So is he.

503
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:46,000
Weekdays at one on the Big Voice of Bigtown, USA, WNBC, New York.

504
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:51,000
And before we get back with our guests, I'd like to take a moment to talk about Chinese news.

505
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,000
Hey, if you're a little confused about some of the things we've been talking about so far,

506
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,000
may I remind you that one of our guests, Mr. Stanton,

507
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:05,000
who has really spent a lot of time investigating flying saucers.

508
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:11,000
And he has written a book titled, Flying Saucers, Hokes or Reality.

509
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,000
He's going to be giving a lecture at the Hotel Woodstock.

510
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:20,000
That's tonight, Friday night, 1.27 West, 43rd Street, 7.30 PM.

511
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,000
I just want the doors open.

512
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,000
The lecture begins probably at 8.30.

513
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:31,000
And there'll be a question and answer period, and you'll have the chance to talk with them.

514
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,000
Now back with our guests.

515
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:39,000
We're talking this morning with Jerome Stanton, who is an electronics engineer.

516
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,000
And he's been a science writer for many, many years.

517
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:47,000
And he's responsible for the book titled, Flying Saucers, Hokes or Reality.

518
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:53,000
Alan is a science writer. He has contributed many articles to the magazine, Science and Mechanics.

519
00:26:53,000 --> 00:27:00,000
And his newest book is titled, and Fred will at least be happy if I mention it.

520
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,000
It's Safe to Smoke.

521
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,000
It is safe. Underlined to you.

522
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,000
Well, I used it as a contraction.

523
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,000
It's safe to smoke. Were you offended?

524
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,000
No, because I didn't put the apostrophe in what I said.

525
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,000
I'm not. I wish you'd...

526
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,000
I'm not even gonna let Fred as a fan.

527
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,000
Really, I won't lose a second sleep if Fred is a fan.

528
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:40,000
Tars LeMond is with us, writer and poet, who has written an article that appears in the current issue of Cavalier, the March 1967 issue.

529
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:53,000
And there's a lot of contactee stories incorporated in his article, which is titled Flying Saucers and the Death of God.

530
00:27:53,000 --> 00:28:02,000
And we've invited Roy Schaep to be with us because Roy is not a believer, but certainly interested in these things.

531
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,000
Roy, we'll give it back to you and you might toss out a question.

532
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:12,000
Yes, I would like to say before I go over to your...

533
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:18,000
She was smoking business. You're not allowed to smoke. I want to ask some questions about that.

534
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:28,000
But I'd like to talk about something that has probably given us something like a million more contactees.

535
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:41,000
And that is, was it last night when a great fireball was seen from Alaska down the western coast to a little bit like somewhere on the western coast,

536
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:57,000
until it finally, after it was called a UFO, very clearly over all the media, it finally was found out to be not a UFO, but a very clearly defined object that they knew about.

537
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:09,000
It was a piece of a Russian satellite orbit, if not this satellite, that finally was affected enough by gravity to come out of its orbit and hit the earth.

538
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:14,000
We all have heard of it happily. And so we're nodding our heads.

539
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:19,000
Now, here we have people with an imagination looking up there.

540
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:28,000
And we're all different looking at a gorgeous, great big flashing thing coming down through the sky into our atmosphere.

541
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:37,000
Now that we know about it, we can figure out what happened, like a shooting star, a meteor, comes through to the atmosphere.

542
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:42,000
And because our atmosphere is thick, it gets friction, it lights up.

543
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,000
And so we can figure out why things have happened.

544
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:54,000
And so people with an imagination say, hey, that before we were told what it is, they tell us what they saw.

545
00:29:54,000 --> 00:30:11,000
And according to the kind of atmosphere around them, which might be thicker or moisture, to make it, to figure the shape of it, to go as it gets nearer to the earth, to spread out and have a different kind of a shape.

546
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:20,000
By the time it gets to the ground, you've got at least a million people who might have seen it give you a million different stories.

547
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:28,000
I'm saying this is the way you can get flying saucer contacting stories. Do you agree, Mr. Mow?

548
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,000
I agree.

549
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:34,000
I disagree with that entirely. Where's the contact?

550
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,000
I agree with the word shape and the concept.

551
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,000
That they saw flying to him, really, that I agree with that.

552
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:53,000
They saw and they may say they saw something that looked like so, because of the misshapen conditions that the atmosphere might give it.

553
00:30:53,000 --> 00:31:04,000
I'm sorry, I'm quite glad the word contact is wrong. However, the imagination, if it's the same great imaginations, were went to work and assumed many other things.

554
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,000
It might very well come out with little green.

555
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:24,000
In fact, you see a UFO, some people with the imagination, you've trips to them, interpret it as being a flying saucer, and if they really want to sell or have problems, it may land in their back yard and people step out of it.

556
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:32,000
I'd like to say one thing you've mentioned, little green men. I've heard tremendous number of contactee stories.

557
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:41,000
I only vaguely remember hearing somebody talking about little green men, but no one that I've ever talked to ever saw these little green men.

558
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:47,000
Most of the people that I've heard about are people of average height.

559
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:58,000
If you could use something that would maybe be a little different, golden eyes, and always have a spiritual look on their face.

560
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,000
These are the types of men.

561
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:11,000
In fact, when Menger was the big man around town, Menger used to tell us that these men are working in gasoline stations in banks and places like that.

562
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:16,000
You can't have little green men in banks, you know, if they're in the safe deposit.

563
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,000
I have a little green billboard.

564
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,000
We're all right.

565
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,000
That's right, working all over.

566
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:33,000
I've never heard these descriptions except once in a while somebody would say about somebody that was peculiar looking compared to what we thought that people looked like.

567
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,000
The only one I remember was the West Virginia.

568
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,000
There was a West Virginia.

569
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:44,000
But around that time, there were a whole family of people.

570
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:50,000
These were described as little people about three feet high, but I think they were silver, weren't they?

571
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:57,000
Were the Germans the ones that were generally not in West Virginia?

572
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:08,000
Well, they were, but the little silver man of which the photograph was taken presumably, and published here and there,

573
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:19,000
accompanied by two men and raincoats who were frequently described as being FBI or Secret Service men,

574
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,000
flown over from the United States.

575
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,000
It was a self-claimed photograph of a little man about two and a half feet tall,

576
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:33,000
and a silver, obviously, sort of iridescent, and two men, Allah Barker, and the coats on his eye.

577
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:40,000
And the little tiny figure holding the hands, like, you know, mom and papa, but that's the only silver.

578
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:45,000
Well, we have heard of Brazil, too, where these two fathers were supposed to be driving a truck.

579
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:46,000
Oh, yeah.

580
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,000
The FBI's worked about three feet high.

581
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:49,000
So they were pretty rare.

582
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,000
They were pretty strong and soft.

583
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:52,000
99 percent of them.

584
00:33:52,000 --> 00:34:00,000
But you notice that in the blind saucers book that we have, not one little man is photographed.

585
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:05,000
We do have, yeah, Francis Burr, you're talking about the Colombs magazine.

586
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,000
But there are a couple of photographs of those.

587
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,000
Oh, I'm sure there must be.

588
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:11,000
Not that.

589
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,000
There are these girls.

590
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,000
But they're long with this.

591
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,000
The imagination has given us all kinds of ways of building stories.

592
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:24,000
And I'm saying that we need massages once in a while.

593
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,000
After all, life can become boring.

594
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:33,000
When a great streaking light comes across the sky, we can add all kinds of things to it if we want to.

595
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,000
I'd like to talk about your smoking now for a moment.

596
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:40,000
You say it may be, is your words.

597
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,000
I'm not doing it to take your words to the end.

598
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,000
I'm being kinder to you.

599
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,000
My words are it can be.

600
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:47,000
It can be.

601
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,000
That's your, it can be safe to smoke.

602
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:51,000
Right.

603
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,000
Tell us a little about that.

604
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,000
Well, I'm awfully sorry, Mr. Shaper.

605
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,000
We did this just this, oh, I'm sorry.

606
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,000
We did the show with him.

607
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,000
We went a little later in the morning, we might get into this,

608
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:09,000
but I think it would be unfair to Paris and to Jay,

609
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:16,000
because, and even to Lloyd, because Lloyd is making a classical book,

610
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,000
Loading Science and Mechanics, literally,

611
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,000
Well, by the way, well, that's your problem.

612
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:23,000
That's your hangout.

613
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,000
Maybe that day of all after that.

614
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,000
Well, I have another question.

615
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:34,000
It was mentioned before that 60, and I thought this was a very poor argument that you gave, extremely poor,

616
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:44,000
60 different craft must have been from different places outside our universe or somewhere.

617
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,000
And isn't it possible that they could all come from one place?

618
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:56,000
Well, it's possible, but if this is so, then the people at that one place, from my, my, are very poor engineers.

619
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:57,000
Why so?

620
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,000
We, uh, how do we, uh, we have, we have, we have, we have, we have all over the land.

621
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:06,000
How many different craft do we have, just as that we sent to the FNAS?

622
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,000
Oh, now you're talking about military craft.

623
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,000
I'm sorry, sir, but you see these can be easily.

624
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,000
All right.

625
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:20,000
I can just quickly, without going into a lot of detail, tell you that among the high performance aircraft,

626
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,000
we're using four different types.

627
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,000
One of them's almost obsolete.

628
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:36,000
Among the, uh, reconnaissance type aircraft, some of them overlap because, for example, the F-105,

629
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:46,000
which is a single-seat fighter, also has a version for reconnaissance called the RF-105, which is a two-seater.

630
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,000
This is equally true of the F-4C.

631
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,000
All right. Now let me tell you something.

632
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:57,000
Russians have a few plans too, and so do the other countries, and they're all different shapes.

633
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:58,000
Would you agree?

634
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,000
No, they're not basically different shapes.

635
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,000
They have to have a narrow dynamic shape.

636
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,000
But they do look different.

637
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:06,000
Now, we can't...

638
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:07,000
Not essentially.

639
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,000
Only in terms of the general shape of it.

640
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,000
The helicopter's alone, of course.

641
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,000
A little on the other hand.

642
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:22,000
But they all happen to have the type of air-for-well system that keeps a helicopter up in the air, right?

643
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,000
A whirling, I mean, they have a whirling disc.

644
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,000
I mean, it's a disc of the world.

645
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,000
But, Tom, I think you're really trying to argue with it.

646
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:35,000
No, there are different airplanes, enough different ones from one flight at full speed.

647
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:42,000
But these 58 to 60 different configurations were distinctly different.

648
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:47,000
You look in the magazine there, there are drawings of them.

649
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,000
Well, I'm serious.

650
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,000
Why do you think so?

651
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:59,000
No matter how many different versions of a helicopter there are, you can recognize it as a helicopter, right?

652
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,000
You're quite right.

653
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,000
And an airplane.

654
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,000
Let's qualify that a little.

655
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:12,000
If you're reasonably sophisticated about our type of aircraft and fly by accelerating a massive air downward,

656
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:18,000
yes, you could say that's a helicopter and that's a helicopter, but exposing that you are an ignorant savage.

657
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:30,000
We are supposed to presume, if we believe these stories about flying saucers being actually vehicles controlled by intelligent beings from somewhere else,

658
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:35,000
that they are far superior to us in technology.

659
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:36,000
That's right.

660
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:46,000
Well, if we have analog here, we might be the savages who would not as readily recognize things as being, in fact, the same kind of vehicle

661
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:51,000
as the savage in the center of New Guinea who might not be able to pick out one helicopter and say,

662
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:56,000
well, that's essentially, generically the same thing as that one over there.

663
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,000
That alone seems four or five different types of planes.

664
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,000
I'm not even sure if you can say that.

665
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:06,000
I don't mind that for a minute what I said there, but I'm just pointing out that this argument doesn't hold water to well.

666
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:07,000
No, it's very well.

667
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:13,000
I would think that even a savage who has no background in aerodynamics,

668
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:18,000
if he saw three different designs of helicopters fly over the treetops

669
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:25,000
and then saw three different high-performance jet airplanes fly over the same treetops,

670
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:32,000
he would be able to distinguish the helicopter as such from the airplane as such.

671
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,000
Generally speaking, I would agree.

672
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:38,000
Well, unless he's really stupid and I don't think savages are as stupid as the aerocarpets.

673
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,000
Let's get to one point clear.

674
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:45,000
At just one point here because it applies directly.

675
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:50,000
There's no reason to believe that he would see distinguishing characteristics

676
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:56,000
because Native 1 sees either, makes no difference which one of the clouds.

677
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:57,000
Coming over to what I just said.

678
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:03,000
A week later, Native 2 sees it and they say we saw a great bird and a great silver bird.

679
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,000
Great silver bird in the air.

680
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,000
Great silver bird moves fast.

681
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,000
You can have long-range, modified cockpit.

682
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:18,000
I think you guys are simplifying this because a high-performance jet fighter has a minimum speed at which it can operate.

683
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:23,000
When it falls below, say, 150 knots, it's going to fall out of the sky.

684
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:28,000
A helicopter travels much more slowly, makes a lot more noise, believe me,

685
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,000
because the jet engine is directional in its noise.

686
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,000
I think we're belaboring this point.

687
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,000
Let's get to something else.

688
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,000
A blue book situation.

689
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,000
I mean, we can go out and out and play.

690
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,000
Gentlemen, if you're welcome, don't overlap, please.

691
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,000
It makes it difficult for our listeners.

692
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:54,000
Mr. Marron, if you listen to the question and then take plenty of time to answer it.

693
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,000
This blue book.

694
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,000
I'd like you to tell me what it is first.

695
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,000
I think it's a list of some of us now, but some of us do not.

696
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,000
What is the blue book?

697
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:09,000
You can name it very simply because there's a complex history to it, as man can tell you.

698
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:19,000
Project Blue Book began, I think, is it shortly after or just prior to Kenneth Arnold's?

699
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,000
Well, it was, I call it Project Blue Book.

700
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:30,000
It was a time when the project started up by the Air Force in 1948 to investigate these reports that were coming in.

701
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,000
To then after Arnold?

702
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,000
Yes, it was slightly after.

703
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,000
The first one was signed.

704
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:37,000
Signed, Roger.

705
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:41,000
The first time it had ever changed the project.

706
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,000
Mr. Annary, tell us what it is, please.

707
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,000
We're overlapping terribly.

708
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:48,000
Yes, we are.

709
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:49,000
Just to not please.

710
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,000
I was playing what it is.

711
00:41:51,000 --> 00:42:01,000
This thing actually was the Air Force's way of dealing with the reports that were persistently being sent into local authorities like the police,

712
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:16,000
who then bucked it up to line to the military authorities about things being seen moving through the air that people on the ground were unable to identify as being something they knew about.

713
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:23,000
Of course, were there not, they actually could be shown later to be something that was identifiable.

714
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,000
It was another thing that people who reported them were unable to say.

715
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:34,000
Well, we saw the 727 gentliner fly over last night at 5.43.

716
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,000
They would just say we saw something pass over there.

717
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,000
We couldn't explain.

718
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:54,000
The Air Force got enough of these reports in the few months following the first report from Arnold that they set up a project that is a group of people specifically assigned to the duty of looking at these reports

719
00:42:54,000 --> 00:43:04,000
and trying to figure out whether or not there was anything here that was a threat to the security of the country that the Air Force naturally has not been able to do the first thing that they've reacted to.

720
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,000
That's the basic reason.

721
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:17,000
I think the first name for this group of people, the first code name would say assigned to it within the Air Force, was Project Sign.

722
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,000
It's not only two people.

723
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:20,000
It's not a group.

724
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:26,000
It started off in two people and a couple of clerks who shuffled the neighbors and so on.

725
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,000
But that's another thing.

726
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:39,000
One of the reasons that I don't think that the project grew booked is now the name of this continuing function within the Air Force to analyze these reports.

727
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:51,000
One of the things I am not notably impressed by is the fact that the size of the staff of people during the work over the years has gone up and down like a yo-yo,

728
00:43:51,000 --> 00:44:02,000
depending on the immediate importance that was assigned to it within the Air Force, depending on who you might say had to be in command at the time.

729
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:07,000
It's never been anybody's stress and imagination a large group.

730
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:18,000
No, I think the biggest staff that Rupal had at the time, the biggest flap there after that Washington Duke, he had, I think, eleven people counting himself.

731
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,000
Yes, that's the most.

732
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,000
I would like to add something here with that open flap.

733
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,000
Yeah, my lab workers quite often too.

734
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,000
They weren't even fully assigned to ours.

735
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,000
Yes, I would like to add something because this is often overlooked.

736
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:39,000
The staff down at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, which is headquarters for Project Blue Book, is small except at their command and they have no budget.

737
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:50,000
They can call on anybody on the foreign technology division of the Air Force Systems Command, which is the intelligence gathering section.

738
00:44:50,000 --> 00:45:00,000
And they can also call on anybody at any U.S. Air Force Base in the entire world to act as an investigator.

739
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,000
They owe the authority of the United States behind the class.

740
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:03,000
That's right.

741
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:15,000
So therefore you can't merely look at the small staff down at Wright Patterson Air Force Base and say this is Project Blue Book because it isn't basically.

742
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:25,000
Project Blue Book covers maybe, well, it could be as many as 5,000 investigators.

743
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,000
Well, I think it was a good idea to work with that.

744
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,000
I don't have a radio if you're going to give me a chance.

745
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:43,000
Project Blue Book, the term, the code name applies only to the people actually whose full-time job is officially assigned to analyze these reports.

746
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:53,000
Now the fact that they can get information from any Air Force Base around the country doesn't enlist all the people who send them information as a part of the Project Blue Book team.

747
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:58,000
This is something a guy might do at 15 minutes out of his whole day at some other Air Force Base.

748
00:45:58,000 --> 00:45:59,000
It's not true.

749
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,000
I hate to interject this, but it's not true.

750
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:10,000
They can assign, they have the authority to call on any intelligence officer at any Air Force Base, U.S. Air Force Base.

751
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:11,000
Everybody would have this to stand on.

752
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:12,000
No, I don't.

753
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:13,000
That's a no.

754
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,000
Why can you disagree with facts?

755
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:16,000
Wait a minute.

756
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,000
Everything you say isn't a fact automatically.

757
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:19,000
No, that's not a fact.

758
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:30,000
The fact that I can ask Francis today, I called an editor at Aviation Week to get a phone number.

759
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:35,000
That doesn't mean that he is part of my staff or whatever I would call it.

760
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,000
My staff usually consists of me.

761
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:46,000
The fact that I can call on somebody for information or ask him to look up something for me doesn't automatically put him under my command.

762
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:51,000
That's exactly the situation that exists with the Project Blue Book.

763
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:57,000
If they get a report from, well, now they can't order somebody out of another Air Force Base.

764
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,000
You go and investigate the software.

765
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:00,000
They ask them for information.

766
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,000
No, no, they can order someone.

767
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,000
They have the authority to do this tomorrow.

768
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:06,000
You can check with them.

769
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:10,000
Holy, this is a, where do you, you tell us, you say you know this is a fact.

770
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:11,000
All right.

771
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:12,000
Prove to us.

772
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:13,000
Right now.

773
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:14,000
I guess the answer is no.

774
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:19,000
I got a report from Major Hector Quintanilla Jr., who was Chief of Project Blue Book.

775
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:27,000
I got it from Colonel George Freeman, who is the Pentagon liaison on this particular project.

776
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:39,000
I got it from Colonel Mastin Jax, who is Director of a whole section of the information section of the, in the Office of the Secretary of the Air Force.

777
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:47,000
They all told you that they have the authority to order, to order people, to give them information.

778
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:48,000
So is this true?

779
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,000
Mr. Stanton, you disagree with him.

780
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:51,000
I'd like to know why.

781
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:58,000
Well, they can ask for information from any place in the world, as far as I can make out.

782
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:02,000
And I've talked to the same people that, they do have the backing of the U.S. government at the time.

783
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:03,000
They can't, I can make out.

784
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:07,000
And I've talked to the same people that, they do have the backing of the U.S. government at the time.

785
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:08,000
They can't ask at the time.

786
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:09,000
Yes.

787
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:20,000
But that doesn't mean that the man at the other end of the pipe that they ask is under their command, and has per force to drop whatever else he's doing, and go out in the field and look for something for them.

788
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,000
Oh, may I add this?

789
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:32,000
At each base, there is an intelligence officer who is called the face UFO investigator.

790
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:39,000
And he has to go out and do the investigation, as he's asked to do this by Blue Book.

791
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,000
Well, Paris, you, you're aware of all this too.

792
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,000
How would you vote on this?

793
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,000
Oh, I think it's ridiculous.

794
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,000
It's like saying that, that...

795
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,000
Well, they go by that, yeah.

796
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:55,000
I mean, just because they're under Air Force bases, are they?

797
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:59,000
If we go by that, then the Project Blue Book staff is going to be up in the hundreds.

798
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,000
More than 100.

799
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:04,000
If I were to answer the question, Roy, if I were to...

800
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:11,000
I'm asking Paris if I can get past three or four reasons of the sentence before I'm interrupted.

801
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,000
It's absurd for this reason.

802
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:28,000
It's the equivalent, would be to say that the medical staff of a hospital consisted of not, or let's say the operating staff, the surgical staff of a hospital,

803
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:36,000
not all the intensive resins, but particularly the department that handled surgery,

804
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:46,000
consisted of surgeons, plus the nurses, plus the attendants, plus the interns, plus the ambulance drivers,

805
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:52,000
plus the attendants that went out in the ambulance, plus anybody in the street who happened to call up when somebody got injured.

806
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:58,000
Of course, anybody who collects, collects information,

807
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:03,000
almost I would say, I can't think of any exception, I'll come,

808
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:08,000
would have access to information provided by innumerable people.

809
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:12,000
Any writer finds that he goes out and he may interview 100 people.

810
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:18,000
These people have nothing to do with him directly, and yet all of them may respond if he calls.

811
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:35,000
Now, if you want to put it in terms where the person has to respond, it's like, oh, the State Department is in a position where it virtually can force a citizen anywhere in the world

812
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:44,000
to, if it's absolutely central for a national emergency, and it can call upon a citizen and, well, it's not in any country to get into conversations,

813
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:48,000
but any place in the world and say, look, your government needs you to do this,

814
00:50:48,000 --> 00:51:01,000
and 99 times out of 100 because the State Department, all of the CIA, whatever it was, the Council, had the authority of the United States government behind them.

815
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:07,000
They represented the country, the American citizens, would say yes, if it was possible, he would accommodate them.

816
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:13,000
And in these terms, of course, everybody is a member of the State Department, everybody is a member of whatever you want them to be a member of,

817
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:26,000
but Bloomberg, as then as it is specifically, an organization, a very small and never properly equipped or properly staffed group,

818
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:38,000
which was put together originally and still exists to not collect particularly, but to evaluate the reports from all over the world.

819
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:44,000
They get reports, probably the majority of the reports don't come from service personnel at all.

820
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:45,000
They come from all over the world.

821
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:55,000
There's other governments, other military organizations, laymen and what have you, scientists, pilots.

822
00:51:55,000 --> 00:52:03,000
The purpose of this group is to collect and evaluate these sites.

823
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,000
Let's pick up the word of value, pardon me for just a moment, Paris.

824
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:21,000
The word of value, immediately, I'm sure, would hit many listeners and say, well, when they evaluate, are they the scientists and engineers and mathematicians and physicists who are able to test and train?

825
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:22,000
How do they evaluate?

826
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:31,000
Well, unfortunately, I think, pardon, that's one of the great drawbacks in all of the Air Force investigation, particularly, of course, in Bloomberg.

827
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:49,000
One would assume for evaluations of this sort, one would need precisely the kind of personnel which spoke, astronomers, astrophysicists, engineers, specialists in aerodynamics, radar specialists and so on and so forth.

828
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:56,000
And some really, I don't know how computers go in category, but at least a good computer.

829
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,000
A good computer, yes.

830
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:04,000
And point of fact that, I'm sure, Ms. Malin's going to say, well, they have access to these people.

831
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:20,000
Of course they do, but why, with the kind of money we're spending all over the world for incredible things, we can't afford to have a top astronomer there at all times, a top astrophysicist, whatever is necessary, a staff of 100 people there.

832
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:28,000
Since this entire business had gone on for a quarter of a century, we have no real answers for it.

833
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:48,000
I don't have them to regard as a probable threat, but then I'm sure that the day the bomb dropped on Hiroshima or Nagasaki, they didn't really think that the bomb coming over was a probable threat of annihilating the entire, you know, the entire...

834
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:51,000
I don't appreciate your analogy, but I think I see...

835
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:56,000
And that's because one does not regard something as a probable threat, doesn't mean that it isn't.

836
00:53:56,000 --> 00:54:04,000
I just think, you know, it doesn't appear to me to be any great threat, because these things have been going on for a couple of thousand years.

837
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:23,000
May I say this, Paris, and gentlemen, that if this magazine that, look, put out, called Flying Saucers, and they must have had a hell of a good group of people to check it, scientists, et cetera, or I don't know who they might have been,

838
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:30,000
but really it becomes an unimportant situation. It would seem to me, I agree with you.

839
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:33,000
Our argument is that it's a socio-psychological situation.

840
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:34,000
I would say that's true.

841
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:35,000
It's not.

842
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:50,000
Therefore, there in a so-called organization, which the Blue Book is supposed to be a product of, they would say, well, look, we're using an awful lot of energy for a thing that doesn't appear to be very dangerous at all.

843
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:53,000
And so I would agree with you, Paris.

844
00:54:53,000 --> 00:55:05,000
Back with our guests, we are talking with Lloyd Mallon, science writer who has contributed many articles to the magazine Science and Canics.

845
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:14,000
El Jerome Stanton, who is the author of the book, which is available now in paperback published by Belmont.

846
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:18,000
It's titled Flying Saucers, Hokes or Reality.

847
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:27,000
And then we have Paris Forman, who for a number of years was associated with the show, and he is a writer and a poet.

848
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:34,000
I must say that his article, unfortunately none of the other fellows around the table have had a chance to read the article in Cavalier.

849
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:35,000
Oh, yes, I have.

850
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:36,000
Oh, you did read it?

851
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:37,000
I did.

852
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:38,000
Fine.

853
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:44,000
Well, we'd hoped that we would have extra copies up here before the show, and we just didn't get them.

854
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:48,000
But I think that Paris did an excellent job.

855
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:53,000
It is certainly different from what Mr. Mallon has done, what Mr. Stanton has done.

856
00:55:53,000 --> 00:56:00,000
And this has not meant in a critical sense to Mr. Stanton and Mr. Mallon, because Paris has done it in a different way.

857
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:06,000
He has brought us up to date with some of the Contact D stories.

858
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:15,000
I have always been interested in the Contact D stories, because I think they're fabulous, especially if the guy tells a good one.

859
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:17,000
Who knows, maybe he's telling the truth.

860
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:20,000
Well, I shout as with this photographer.

861
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:30,000
I was just down this afternoon, I took Jane Bozier, who was George Skinner's executive secretary.

862
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:32,000
We went out and had coffee.

863
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:36,000
Gee, I must say the way you rearranged everything down there put a lot of pressure on you.

864
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:37,000
We got a combo.

865
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:38,000
Yeah, a combo.

866
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,000
The best thing about it was the dummy.

867
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:55,000
And there's a great selection of pictures, not only of people that you hear on the shows that I do, but some of the people that you hear and see on the Johnny Carson show.

868
00:56:55,000 --> 00:57:00,000
And some of the great actors and actresses that I have never had to see.

869
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,000
You're a little old Paul Freeman?

870
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:04,000
Yeah, that's great.

871
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:13,000
Paul Freeman, the sculptor, who is with us many times, and that's been added to the group of photographs.

872
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:21,000
So if you're around the RCA building, we hope that you'll stop it and go into Cromwell's Pharmacy.

873
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:28,000
And of course, don't go in there at high noon, because they don't want you to be looking at chat's pictures.

874
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:35,000
And you know when the action is not too great, and gee, the photographs are just great.

875
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:49,000
I know you'll enjoy seeing them, because the names are there, and you'll see Sam Silver, Rabbi Silver, and Al Oppman, and Sina Hamilton, and Roberta Copper, and Anna Marie.

876
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:51,000
No, I didn't put her back yet.

877
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:52,000
I took one down.

878
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:53,000
I did not like it while I was in Derby.

879
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:55,000
I gotta put her back up again.

880
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:56,000
Roberta isn't there, isn't there?

881
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:57,000
She's not down there.

882
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:01,000
I know Anna Marie gets there.

883
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:03,000
So take a look.

884
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:05,000
You'll enjoy.

885
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:20,000
Getting back with our guests, again, I think what we should do, though, and new fellas haven't had that chance, and I have read the article,

886
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:30,000
I would like to ask you fellas, and really some of my questions are almost ridiculous for the simple reason that I could answer a lot of them myself,

887
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:34,000
but you were associated with the show for a long while.

888
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:53,000
I think I'll ask you, what contactee story do you think was the one that sounded that it might be legitimate, and yet far out,

889
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:59,000
and tell the story, tell what the guy or the gal actually said?

890
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,000
Is there any particular one that you...

891
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,000
That's very hard.

892
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:08,000
Actually, I'm not sure that the best one I...

893
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:15,000
Best of the contactee story tellers was the one who told the most authentic sound they were on,

894
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:19,000
because I have a great weakness for Orpheus Angelucci's tales.

895
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:21,000
I think he's probably listening.

896
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:22,000
You might listen.

897
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:28,000
I wanted to get, before I left this day, to get all the time stuff, but particularly, is this a new thing with Orpheus?

898
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:29,000
No.

899
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:30,000
Is it?

900
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:31,000
You'll want to hear it.

901
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:33,000
It's the little girl.

902
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:36,000
Oh, I mean, the little dancing girl.

903
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:37,000
It is past.

904
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:40,000
And that's only one of the...

905
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:48,000
It may be almost the best, but Orpheus, unlike other of the contactees,

906
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:53,000
no matter how extravagant his claims were,

907
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:57,000
he saw her sitting there, his little slight fellow of dark hair,

908
00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:02,000
he looks like a sketch by an Italian Renaissance painter or something,

909
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:05,000
and he's so sincere.

910
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:08,000
And some of the others naming no one in particular,

911
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:11,000
verify a man who had a false sincerity.

912
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:13,000
Oh, no, really?

913
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:14,000
Yes.

914
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:16,000
Does the damski make something of the same impression?

915
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:17,000
No.

916
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:18,000
No, not at all.

917
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:19,000
Never map it.

918
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:20,000
And there's some that are...

919
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:25,000
Yeah, and there's some that come on, you know, it's outright cons, you know.

920
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:28,000
No, I mean cons, and I won't identify which are which,

921
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:34,000
but I mean, you have the entire range that we do from the ones who are obviously in it

922
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:39,000
to make a fast buck from the suckers as fast as quickly as they can,

923
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:44,000
and then on to the next time, all the way through people that you kind of have to believe,

924
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:49,000
but know they're kind of commercializing maybe something they halfway believe in,

925
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:51,000
and then all the way over to...

926
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:53,000
Well, we all know that the best con is utter sincerity.

927
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:56,000
That's why every con man has to believe in it.

928
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:58,000
But we're not that nice.

929
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:01,000
You've missed something, Jay.

930
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:03,000
I have done...

931
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:05,000
I don't know how many I was going to say hundreds,

932
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:10,000
that's a sure exaggeration because there aren't hundreds to my knowledge would say there,

933
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:14,000
at least 30 or 40.

934
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:19,000
And one way through, and all way through, great,

935
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:23,000
when you're coming back in town next time, call me and we're going to put you out,

936
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:26,000
because it's good for me, it's great for the show,

937
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:30,000
and it's good for the guy who wants to make the pitch.

938
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:36,000
There's only one man, and I remember when he wrote me, went back to California,

939
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:41,000
and when he sent me a letter, and I don't know if you can get the sincerity out of it,

940
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:45,000
that I did, he sent me a letter, and he thanked me for being out,

941
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:49,000
and he said, I'm coming back, like in June, too much or not.

942
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:56,000
And he said, I would like to have Paris and his wife, and you and your wife,

943
01:01:56,000 --> 01:02:00,000
be my guest at Tosca, Nettys.

944
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:05,000
Well, that's not a thing, but...

945
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:11,000
Yeah, it was so sincere, it was all lovely, so warm,

946
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:20,000
that if he had come back at that time, and if there was any opportunity for me to take the time,

947
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:25,000
I would have marched over to Tosca, Nettys, with him, and sat there...

948
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:27,000
One of those rubber potatoes.

949
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:31,000
No, it's just kind of a... he was not sincere,

950
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:36,000
when he would talk on the air, and when he would describe the little girl,

951
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:40,000
which we're not going to do tonight, because you can hear it Sunday,

952
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:48,000
and when he would describe these things, I honestly believe, because mind you,

953
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:52,000
here is one God that never made a buck.

954
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:59,000
If he made a buck, if he ever made a fast $50 for giving a lecture someplace,

955
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:04,000
he certainly must have spent a hundred and a half to get to the place to get the $50.

956
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:11,000
He... when I would say about his book, it was done and depressed,

957
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:15,000
and I would say, where is the book available?

958
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:18,000
You've got to get the guy, I shake, right?

959
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:22,000
He said, well, John, it's really not important.

960
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:27,000
I said, well, I was in Britannos, and I don't know if they were sold out,

961
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:30,000
but I didn't see it there, see?

962
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:35,000
You know, thinking, he'd say, well, a lot of people write in.

963
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:37,000
Nothing, he said.

964
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:44,000
But John's just one of those things, he said, my book has not really been a very successful seller,

965
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:50,000
and I really don't care, it's just I want to tell people about it.

966
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:53,000
Well, you can't knock that.

967
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:56,000
He's got you completely cornered.

968
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:59,000
He's going to settle for the eagle.

969
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:01,000
No, no, I think I'll go along with John.

970
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:03,000
I don't believe everything he said.

971
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:08,000
John of Arc may very well have heard those voices.

972
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:09,000
Oh, I'm not...

973
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:11,000
I'm having a hard time.

974
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:13,000
I'm just not...

975
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:14,000
I think every...

976
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:19,000
There are a lot of really believe, and it comes back out that there are a lot of people...

977
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:26,000
But the difference with Andrew and Duluthi is that he had made a lot of talk over it too much.

978
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:28,000
You don't listen, I'm sorry.

979
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:33,000
I'm sorry, you start talking and then of course they should be able to take it.

980
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:34,000
I'm sorry, I can't do...

981
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:36,000
I can't anticipate what you're going to say.

982
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:37,000
All right, go ahead.

983
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:38,000
I'm sorry.

984
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:47,000
Well, just about the archive, the thing that distinguished him from those who, let's say,

985
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:51,000
have visions, illusions, what have you,

986
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:54,000
and are totally sincere,

987
01:04:54,000 --> 01:05:02,000
was that he had a marvelous ability to convey his experiences.

988
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:08,000
And when you read Ovio, it's not like reading most of the contactee stories.

989
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:11,000
It's like reading Hans Christian Andersen.

990
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:13,000
There's a gentle beauty about...

991
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:16,000
And I don't mean he had great literary skill.

992
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:18,000
He's not a...

993
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:28,000
Certainly doesn't have the kind of black language expecting somebody who would become a great, very short writer.

994
01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:30,000
But they have that quality.

995
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:34,000
Unlike any other I've ever come across, he would...

996
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:46,000
There is one incident where he meets Adam, who subsequently opens an entire horizon of the solar system and beyond her.

997
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:54,000
And his description of this position from Seattle, Washington, and how he sat in the cafe late at night,

998
01:05:54,000 --> 01:06:03,000
and he had a matter of fact to just give a very brief sketch of what's into the cafe one night out in the desert,

999
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:09,000
and he sees this figure in the booth, and I'm not going to tube the bed, but around it,

1000
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:15,000
and he sees the fellow who says, hello, Ovio, and he...

1001
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:19,000
Ovio is speaking, said, do you know me?

1002
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:23,000
Well, I expected you to know me, and he does this dialogue, and it's just...

1003
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:29,000
And he sits down, and he talks about how he'd feel, the beauty of this man,

1004
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:38,000
and he knew that his life had suddenly taken a turn that would develop an open, enormous horizon for many proceeds to talk about Adam

1005
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:46,000
in a way that eventually... I don't know if Adam is, you know, right over somebody who knows or has not,

1006
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:52,000
but if he isn't, and Ovio has the ability to create a character,

1007
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:57,000
the rest is anybody who want to know, including Ami or Ovio.

1008
01:06:57,000 --> 01:07:09,000
Ovio wrote a solo book, not as a book based on something, but as a story, a fantasy.

1009
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:14,000
He wouldn't... I'm not saying I'm the best seller, but he would have made a classic or a back-witter.